Page Necesity: Discuss
I'm curious if we need a page to go on in regards to Kim and Ron's relationship. While I feel it could be a good way to explore it with approperiate links from the page, a short page won't do and it'd need to be more in-depth in regards to analysis to be a page worth having. Otherwise we might as well have a page for relationships between every two people in the series.
Thoughts? LukeDanger 17:37, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
- I believe if we can fill it with enough relevant information then perhaps we can keep the page, otherwise keep their relationship info to their pages respectively.) - DoomScarf 17:49, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
Would not that information be better in Trivia or a like heading?
First, without the actual citation, it is still more or less hearsay; second, although the creators, does not canon take precedence? And "apparently killed" provides both what was seen as well as what might have been intended.
I mean, according to them the main plot of Rewriting History was not supposed to be a dream. They got over-ruled. (After all, either Kim and Ron throughout history *never* hooked up, or Kim and Ron's relationship is incestuous (and probably why Executive Meddling mandated it a dream)). It's also like reportedly in an interview they said that Shego's hair was meant to be green, but it didn't look good, so she dyes it black. Well, not only can I not find that citation, but it was never addressed on the show, and a difference which makes no difference *is* no difference…
- Yeah, I have looked and looked for the interview and cannot find it, so it does likely need to be removed. As far as the creator's statement, as long as it does not contradict what is seen in the show, then it is often considered quasi-canon. At least that is the way other projects like this that I have worked on have functioned.
- Interesting on the Rewriting History I had never heard that. Although even if Mim and Jon had gotten married it still wouldn't necessarily have made Kim and Ron's relationship incestuous since Mim was Kim's great-great aunt and it was never actually stated what Jon was to Ron. If he was a great-great uncle then Kim and Ron wouldn't have any blood relation at all. Even if Jon was Ron's great grandfather then Kim and Ron would be third cousins, which is in no state in US considered even remotely incest.
- Never saw that bit about Shego's hair and quite frankly even if it was said it sounds like a joke.
- Mknopp (talk) 17:24, November 28, 2012 (UTC)
- "Canon" is what is seen. "Word of God" is often suspect while having a certain weight to them. Same for Creators' comments and Production notes, and *should* have a place in the notes and or trivia. Still, and especially if you're going for in-verse POV, then without actual canon evidence –reliable (non-hyperbole) dialog or (rule of comics) seeing the bodies– then it is only implied. Plus the *hook* remains open for any future new canon to bring them back alive. Yes, that is at this time *thin* and unlikely, but you never know. It *IS* worthy of notation, just not IMHO in the body of the main POV article.
- There is how the world sees marriage between relatives, and there is how *Disney* sees *potential* them. Mind you, I did not state that is *why* the execs meddling made it a dream, just that *might* be why. As for the episode, no, Jon-to-Ron was not stated other than being a Stoppable, Old Wayne's comment about Ron being his double, and related enough that Jon's diary had been under the Stoppable dinner table leg for as long as Ron remembered. BTW, you mean third cousins in any US state is *not illegal*, by secular law. It is, however, still incest by the Catholic Canon Law governing consanguinity, which is up to seven generations, and unknowing marriages between third cousins can be annulled. (I'm a licensed Relationship and Sex Therapist)
- It's not a joke. It was said in a Live Chat session on I think the RonStoppable Board back in the day which a fellow Admin on the Slash Haven participated in. We had quite an argument about her hair as he maintained it *was* green. Other reliable Haven Members remembered it, said there was a transcript somewhere, but no one's found it, if it still exists. I have not reason to doubt what my friends say, but the upshot was we settled for what was seen: her hair is black. I ignore the alleged creator comments as IMO canon trumps all else.
- I did not know that about Catholic marriages. That is interesting. Of course, it only matters if Kim is Catholic.
- So, you are a licensed Relationship and Sex Therapist. It would be interesting to talk to you about your thoughts on the relationships between various characters on the show. For instance, is Sternberg's Triangular Theory of Love still considered valid or has it pretty much been proven inadequate by modern neurological studies done by the likes of Hatfield and Fisher?
- However, that is likely to move into areas where contention exist, and thus really would have to be done somewhere other than here.
- Well, as I said, what any State or country may decree is *secular law*, and what is illegal or not does not change the nature of something; e.g, a wire-tap is a wire-tap; whether it is legal or illegal is another matter.
- My preferences for kigo and slashiness aside, Graduation could have been much better, and yes, that is a discussion for another place. While I suppose there is always my Talk page, not doing anything with it really at the moment, you should popping into the KPSlashHaven(dot)net. Everyone is welcome regardless of who they like to see Kim with. Not to mention I have threads there devoted to examining background details (more than "backdrop"), as well as the cheerleaders.
- A discussion of my professional thoughts on the characters and their relationships (you probably won't like my thoughts on how *the writers* made Ron as a boyfriend; in fact, how they devolved him from season1 into a butt-monkey in general was a *grave disservice* to him) is also for another venue. Again, consider the Slash Haven.
Monkey Fist Strikes
It seems to me that the info regarding the oddity, I would say outright error, concerning Ron just meeting Cousin Larry should be placed either on Larry's page, Ron's page, or preferably on the Monkey Fist Strikes page.
It just doesn't have as much to do with Kim and Ron as it does Ron and Larry.
Although, it isn't really a big deal to me.
To me, it is a reflection on Kim and Ron's relationship. The page is about the development of K/R. They've been together *like forever*, and yet he is just now learning about Larry. To the point she talked about him on their ride back and on the phone all night (and you know they had to have fallen asleep in the middle with line open and resumed when they woke).
That is, IMO, a significant thing deserving at least a 1-line mention of. Deeper discussion should be on other pages, but at least this much here. (::shrug::)
Like I said, the line isn't that big of a deal to me, but seems to be to you. So, leave it. However, there isn't really any deeper discussion to be had concerning it. It happened. It is odd that he doesn't already know all about it, but any further conjecture on the whys is exactly that conjecture and with something that is very likely a creator error, it is likely to cross too much into original research opinion. Remember, this isn't the forum where everyone tries to explain everything in-universe. This wiki has to start with an out-of-universe view and then be coached into terms of in-universe for the article. That is a HUGE difference in the way things have to be approached.
That being said, there is one thing that you said, that I was wondering about your thoughts on the page. This is an article concerning Kim and Ron's relationship. That includes *all* forms of their relationship, not just the romantic. And even with regards to the romantic, it isn't necessarily about the "development" only.
For instance, while there really wasn't any development in the romantic relationship between Kim and Ron in "Number One", that doesn't mean that there was nothing in the episode concerning their relationship to each other. In fact, there was pretty decent amount of information in this episode highlighting Ron's role as Kim's friend and supporter.
About Number One, I don't recall anything significantly different between Kim and Ron. He was supportive of her, but he's generally supportive of her, and there is really nothing new in that. And I'm not just talking about developments which are romantic. I'll discuss their bumps and reaffirmations even as friends. But no matter the relationship level you wish to discuss, Number One provided no true difference from their "Baseline". Ron could have been completely absent from the episode and there would have been zero impact relationship-wise.
Yes, but where is that "baseline" established? I think that you are too steeped in the material and too used to conversing with people who are also steeped in the material, but editors should always keep in mind who this wiki is for. The wiki is not just those that are really into the show and have watched most or all of the episodes, but also those people who may have only seen one or two episodes, or even those people who have never seen a single episode but want to know more about Kim Possible.
This is supposed to be a comprehensive resource covering the show and as the page that is supposed to deal with Kim and Ron's relationship it is on this page that we are not only supposed to deal with anomalies from their baseline relationship, but also document the instances where the baseline itself is established. Because, if we don't establish the baseline for their relationship on this page where should we?
Keep in mind where statements like "but he's generally supportive of her" come from. You have watched the show, you have studied the show. So, yes, you know that baseline, but we need to make sure that we write this as if the reader has never seen a single episode. And that premise isn't as ridiculous as it sounds. I have went to wiki articles for shows that I have never seen a single episode of to get a general idea of what the show is about and how the characters relate to each other. In fact, I have done that for a lot of shows because I have seen a reference to it somewhere on the web and am curious.
That is why I do not like statements of nothing happened in this episode concerning Kim and Ron's relationship, because I am hard pressed to think of a single episode where nothing happened between Kim and Ron. Sure, it may have simply been the norm for the show, but that doesn't mean that we can or should ignore it.
On that note, that does mean that there will be some redundancy between what is on this page and the episode pages. But that is to be expected and isn't necessarily a bad thing. The episode page should have a generalized statement of what happened only in that episode. While this page should go more in-depth and compare between the episodes.
At least that is my take on it. Thoughts?
Well, the *body* of the article should present the baseline between them. The episode sub-headers are for what happened in that episode in reflection against their reltionship, good or bad. IMO. It's not that "nothing happened" between them in the episode; they talked, but nothing happened in their relationship. Like I said, Ron could have been absent the entire episode, and nothing significant would ahve changed. In addition, the majority of Ron's interactions were with Will Du ("Want to buy chocolate?" "It's okay dude, I need a tutor at times too" "that door screams dungeon" "she shoots, she scores" "You're very irkable" "or pay a local kid to mow the lawn")
What would you write for Number One about their relationship?
The issue of what needs to go where curtails with your below comments regarding Best Friends since Pre-K, and is actually an issue that is much larger than just this article. Because of this I will post a reply to the forum later.
Regarding what I would write on "Number One", well without a recent rewatching of the episode I would say something to this effect.
Once again, Ron proves his dedication to Kim when he supports her in her battles for superiority from both sides, and on both a personal and professional level.
When Kim's captaincy is threatened by Bonnie, Ron is more than ready and willing to put in the time and effort to help her sell the fundraisers needed for her to stay in the top spot. At the same time Ron has to act as the voice of reason and practically force Kim to put her jockeying for position with Global Justice's top agent, Will Du, aside and focus on the mission.
In addition, Ron reveals a flair of eidetic memory, where at least Kim is concerned, when despite apparently not paying attention to Kim he is able to recite verbatim, with inflection and all, what she said previously to him.
There are a few items in this episode that are important to Kim and Ron's relationship, and quite frankly are never seen anywhere else or are rare, especially as the series progresses.
The first is the episode of Ron's "Kim memory" where he is able to repeat back to her exactly what she was saying to him, with inflection and all, despite not seeming to pay attention to her. This is not shown at any other time in the series.
The second is the not too rare of occurrence in the first season, but completely unheard of by the fourth, instance of Ron acting to fill in for Kim's weak points, when she was so distracted by her confrontation with Will that she and Will would have either been killed or seriously wounded by Duff Killigan if not for Ron's focus.
I can't argue too much with most of that. I think the first para is part of the baseline and could be said of *any* episode. However the rest is… acceptable to me.
I recommend that images and slide-shows should be in order seen in the episode. The one in T3 is in reverse order and seems to me would make more sense to see them sitting in BN (any of her pout? should totes be in there), Ron's epiph, then the jacket gift. Etc.
Incidentally, I really need to tighten that one up a bit better, although I don't mean clipping it; all the info is valuable relationship data, just could be a tad more succinct.
- It is a good idea to put them in order. This was pretty much an experiment on my part late last night to see if I even liked the way it looked and if it contributed significant enough information to be valuable, or would simply be clutter. I think it contributes a significant amount of information.
- Regarding pictures, I debated putting in the PDP, but was concerned that it wasn't enough about Kim and Ron's relationship and more about Kim. However, I also was of the opinion that it demonstrates that Kim isn't above using emotional blackmail on Ron. Also, there needs to be some pictures of Kim being upset of jealous of Ron and of Ron refusing to go with Kim. I just didn't have those screencaps on hand.
- Again, this is an article concerning all aspects of Kim and Ron's relationship, that is both the platonic and romantic, the good and the bad. Even the purely mundane, but informational.
- Most of these articles need a major going over. I am not sure what it is, but the language and syntax just sound off to me.
Hmmm… IMO there is a difference between being "best friends" and what Kim and Ron have. Kim and Monique are best friends. Ron and Felix, arguably, are best friends. Kim and Ron are at a level both deeper and far above simply being best friends.
For years Ron places his life and neuroses on hold to follow Kim around the globe into life-threatening situations and for no *stated* reason other than they are Best Friends. Actually the full term is they are Best Friends Since Pre-K, and at least Ron says it, *nearly every time*, and with all the import of verbal capitalization.
I feel this is a worthy distinction to be made on the page examining their relationship.
- I agree with you, but there really isn't a term for what you are talking about in the English language that doesn't carry a lot of other connotations that are likely to cause arguments. What I don't agree with is capitalizing it and expecting people to thus, understand that this break with convention was on purpose and meant to signify the deeper bond between Kim and Ron, than simple best friends for as long as they can remember. Which is how I look at it because honestly how many people have clear memories that far back?
- So, if we can come up with a better term, I am all for using it, but I don't agree with the capitals.
- There is a bible proverb which says, "there is a friend who is closer than even a brother", and that is Ron to Kim. Somethings simply has a verbal capitalization, an emotional stressing which underscores the importance of a particular term or phrase. It is A Thing, A Class; especially if you are talking about one select instance of it. People may speak it, but you can hear the Capital-whatever.
- BFF is Best Friends Forever (sometimes an F is Female, but often it's added when necessary). It is a singular thing, even if there are more than one. For example, the Totally Spies girls, when they say it they mean the three of them as a group entity. When Ron says "best friend since Pre-K", it has a deep meaning to him. And he almost always says the full phrase, hardly ever just "best friend". He says it about no one else, or as insistently. It's a right of passage, a badge of honor he and only he has earned. Those who he perceived as threatening it, Monique, then "Erik", he rolled it out as The One True Thing between them.
- To early series Kim, they were "best friends since Pre-K". To Ron they were *always* "Best Friends Since Pre-K". And regardless of my shipping preferences, there is nothing more romantic than a Best Friend –whether you date them or not, cause successful married couples are Best Friends– who is at your side come Hell or High Water.
- And a term for it? Ron says it constantly: Best Friend Since Pre-K
- We need to be careful here. While I agree with you, there are many who might not.
- I don't want to remove all interpretation from the wiki, that is practically impossible and not desirable. However, you are moving very much into the realm of presenting your interpretation of the events as canon instead of presenting what happened in canon to lead you to that interpretation.
- This is really an issue that is much more encompassing than this single article, and thus, I will post a forum thread on it later today when I have the time.
- Okay, I brought this back here as I just couldn't think of a way to discuss it on the forum that seemed appropriate.
- This will combine some points from above as well. While I don't have a problem presenting a synopsis of Kim and Ron's relationship, I think that stating much beyond what is stated by the characters in the series as a baseline is towing the line, and possibly stepping over it into original research. You keep mentioning a baseline from which we should only mention what deviates, but I have to ask what exactly that baseline is. Because, their relationship has changed over the series. The baseline in the first season was different from the baseline in the third, and so different from the fourth as to be practically unrecognizable as the same couple. So, where do we establish that baseline? Also, what exactly is involved in establishing that baseline? If it is the actions of the pair, then those need to be stated, and if they must be discussed why separate them from the episodes in which they take place?
- That is all that I will say at this point so as to allow for replies, from anyone who wishes to comment. This is not just a discussion for Love Robin and myself as the outcome of this is likely to influence wiki policy.
- Oh yes, please, others please jump in!!
- I personally feel the baseline is set by the first few episodes, from which as the show progresses the ups and downs, steps forward and back, are discussed. However, if we really need it, there were basically three "first episodes" (or was that just for Shego's first apperances?) from which the baseline could be drawn.
- However, for *me*, the baseline is basically: Ron follows Kim everywhere and is ultimately supportive of what she wants to do because they have been Best Friends since Pre-K, while Kim tends to take him for granted and is usually surprised when he is right about something. They have been together virtually forever and despite occasional reluctances, she will defend him (Psych 101: ultimately she is defending herself for remaining his friend, but that need not be addressed) even so far as to buck the Food Chain. That's a decent core for a baseline against which each episode will either wax or wane their relationship.
- Love Robin (talk) 03:07, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Two sides to every coin
- drumming fingers::
Okay, I finally have to ask… can we also point out the low/bad points in their relationship? Season 4 especially is rife with them. This is not simply because I personally and professionally have a hard time with Kim and Ron as romantically compatible; even healthy and solid relationships have their Ups & Downs and should be addressed. Not to mention we're striving to chronicle Canon, and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your shippin' prefs), the writers gave Kim and Ron several unfavorable moments in S4.
I don't mean it has to come off as completely negative, but K/R was not the bump-less love-fest some (and the Opening Section) make them out to be…
- I replied in Forum:Kim and Ron's Relationship Article.